Use this forum to discuss matters relating to Agave, Beschorneria, Furcraea, Hesperaloe, Hesperoyucca, Manfreda, Polianthes, Yucca and related species. This is where one posts unknown plant photos for ID help.
See this photo of two of my agaves producing inflorescences simultaneously over this last summer (an A. victoriae reginae and an A. parryi truncata). They are situated maybe six feet apart and had heavy pollinator traffic over the summer--honeybees and hummingbirds.
When the seed pods matured on the Queen Vic I harvested them (see the transected stalk), and my first seedlings are appearing as I write this. I really would like to propagate them, because this particular compacta cultivar, which does not offset, has the most perfect rounded conformation. I haven't seen anything close to its rounded conformation currently in the nurseries, and all the Queen Vics I see for sale now produce offsets, which I don't want.
Here's my question--how likely is it that the seeds I harvested from my Queen Vic are actually a hybrid of the two adjacent agaves, A. victoriae reginae x A. parryi truncata?
two agaves spiking.jpg (319.3 KiB) Viewed 7730 times
Gawd, who knows? Some agaves self-pollinate, others do not. You'll just have to sow and see what you get. It could be a year or more before seedlings clarify.
The only thing you could have done is pay very close attention to the overlap period and determine whether pods were dropping off unfertilized before or after the overlap period. That could have provided a great clue. But just a clue.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
Great question. I'm curious what your preference is. On the one hand, maybe you'd prefer it if the seedlings aren't hybrids, since you like the form of your Queen Vic. But on the other hand, you didn't prevent the parryi from blooming.
Personally I'd prefer it if the seedlings are hybrids as I'd be very curious how they turned out. Are Queen Vic hybrids common or rare?
Epiphyte wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:47 pm
Great question. I'm curious what your preference is. On the one hand, maybe you'd prefer it if the seedlings aren't hybrids, since you like the form of your Queen Vic. But on the other hand, you didn't prevent the parryi from blooming.
Personally I'd prefer it if the seedlings are hybrids as I'd be very curious how they turned out. Are Queen Vic hybrids common or rare?
My preference is to grow a bunch of A. victoriae reginae and do a small mass planting in one of my built-in planters near the front entry way of my house. But if they turn out to be hybrids, well...we'll see. If I like their look and they don't offset like the parryis, I'll use them.
I didn't cut down the parryi flower stalk before it bloomed because the thought of hybridization hadn't crossed my mind. And I've got other agaves spiking about now, too, so throw those in the mix. Usually I cut down agave flower stalks very early in their growth, especially when the big agaves are dying. Otherwise I have what amounts to a tree removal job, and I've learned it gets messy and expensive. And of course if I've recently treated with imidacloprid for agave snout weevil, I'll cut down the stalk before it blooms to keep pollinators from ingesting the insecticide.
Thanks for your opinions. Here's some more data, for what it's worth. See the photo of a couple of seed pods from the A. parryi truncata. Only a small minority of the contained seeds are black. I presume the whitish seeds are not fertile (correct me if I'm wrong). Could this mean a lower probability that the two agave inflorescences exchanged pollen? Or is it irrelevant?
Agave parryi truncata seeds.jpg (244.22 KiB) Viewed 7649 times
Epiphyte wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:47 pm
Great question. I'm curious what your preference is. On the one hand, maybe you'd prefer it if the seedlings aren't hybrids, since you like the form of your Queen Vic. But on the other hand, you didn't prevent the parryi from blooming.
Personally I'd prefer it if the seedlings are hybrids as I'd be very curious how they turned out. Are Queen Vic hybrids common or rare?
My preference is to grow a bunch of A. victoriae reginae and do a small mass planting in one of my built-in planters near the front entry way of my house. But if they turn out to be hybrids, well...we'll see. If I like their look and they don't offset like the parryis, I'll use them.
I didn't cut down the parryi flower stalk before it bloomed because the thought of hybridization hadn't crossed my mind. And I've got other agaves spiking about now, too, so throw those in the mix. Usually I cut down agave flower stalks very early in their growth, especially when the big agaves are dying. Otherwise I have what amounts to a tree removal job, and I've learned it gets messy and expensive. And of course if I've recently treated with imidacloprid for agave snout weevil, I'll cut down the stalk before it blooms to keep pollinators from ingesting the insecticide.
Is this your 1st time sowing the seeds from your Agaves?
Cool that you have other Agaves spiking. I wish that I was your neighbor. Right now I have a very lonely Mangave Pineapple Express blooming. Sadly there's nothing else in my yard currently in bloom that's compatible. I thought that I had enough Mangaves so that their blooms would overlap but nope.
Epiphyte, I've grown A. chiapensis and Hesperoyucca whipplei from seeds. These were mostly just the experiments of a hobbyist. I also grew, for a short time, a sort of small lawn of H. whipplei that naturally seeded from a spiking plant in my back yard. I won't do that again.
Mangaves are a rabbit hole I haven't gone down. Yet.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
Gee.S wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:09 pm
Black = seed, white = chaff.
Does that matter to my original question, viz., do I have hybrid seeds from my Queen Vic?
If I had to guess I would say that amount of viable seed is from self pollination only and the two were either incompatible or flowered too far apart.
I read a study on A macroacantha showing self pollination is drastically lower than for those open to cross pollination from neighboring flowering plants.
I've also seen an A fourcroydes flower on its own and a similar amount of viable seed was produced from self pollination as shown in your pic.
There are so many factors in how much viable seed you can get from selfing or crosses that I don't think anything will tell you much until you sow then and see what the resultant plants look like.
edds wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:57 am
There are so many factors in how much viable seed you can get from selfing or crosses that I don't think anything will tell you much until you sow then and see what the resultant plants look like.
I have an interesting thing going on with my Agave salmiana ssp crassispina that flowered this year. A friend gave me pollen from his flowering Agave montana. With no concern of my personal safety I climbed up a step ladder and put this pollen on the crassispina flowers of a cluster that I could reach. Whilst I was up there I carefully cleaned the paintbrush (wiped it on my trousers ) and transferred crassispina pollen on other clusters in a bid to increase any possible seed set. I did this every day for about a week - interesting to see the change in appearance of the stigmata over time.
I was gratified to see seed pods forming on these hand pollinated flowers. But also dismayed to see seed pods forming on all the others that I couldn't reach, too . The water has been truly muddied by the fact that, arriving later to the party, I also had Agave striata and Agave polianthiflora flower within about a couple of yards of the crassispina. So I actually have no idea exactly what has gone on, not will I until I grow the resultant plants.
Gee.S wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:09 pm
Black = seed, white = chaff.
Does that matter to my original question, viz., do I have hybrid seeds from my Queen Vic?
If I had to guess I would say that amount of viable seed is from self pollination only and the two were either incompatible or flowered too far apart.
I read a study on A macroacantha showing self pollination is drastically lower than for those open to cross pollination from neighboring flowering plants.
I've also seen an A fourcroydes flower on its own and a similar amount of viable seed was produced from self pollination as shown in your pic.
The primary factor determining seed production is pollinators, which are beneficial even when selfing. Low pollinator numbers = low seed count. Another factor applicable here is that Agave parryi flowers open in a different manner than most other agaves. These flowers tend to open en masse over a few days, overwhelming available pollinators, so parryi seed count is almost always low. OTOH, I once had an A. pelona self to the tune of 50K seed.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
edds wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:57 am
There are so many factors in how much viable seed you can get from selfing or crosses that I don't think anything will tell you much until you sow then and see what the resultant plants look like.
I have an interesting thing going on with my Agave salmiana ssp crassispina that flowered this year. A friend gave me pollen from his flowering Agave montana. With no concern of my personal safety I climbed up a step ladder and put this pollen on the crassispina flowers of a cluster that I could reach. Whilst I was up there I carefully cleaned the paintbrush (wiped it on my trousers ) and transferred crassispina pollen on other clusters in a bid to increase any possible seed set. I did this every day for about a week - interesting to see the change in appearance of the stigmata over time.
I was gratified to see seed pods forming on these hand pollinated flowers. But also dismayed to see seed pods forming on all the others that I couldn't reach, too . The water has been truly muddied by the fact that, arriving later to the party, I also had Agave striata and Agave polianthiflora flower within about a couple of yards of the crassispina. So I actually have no idea exactly what has gone on, not will I until I grow the resultant plants.
This is why serious hybridizers (of which I am certainly not one) wrap pods after fertilizing.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
Gee.S wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:20 am
This is why serious hybridizers (of which I am certainly not one) wrap pods after fertilizing.
Indeed. The trouble is, Ron, I can't do that one handed whilst desperately clinging onto the ladder with the other. I have absolutely no head for heights. Hoping aloes might be easier, what with them generally being a lot shorter
Gee.S wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:20 am
This is why serious hybridizers (of which I am certainly not one) wrap pods after fertilizing.
Indeed. The trouble is, Ron, I can't do that one handed whilst desperately clinging onto the ladder with the other. I have absolutely no head for heights. Hoping aloes might be easier, what with them generally being a lot shorter
This is why A. colorata hybrids are SO common -- the short stalks.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".
"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
Salmiana x montana could be a stunner, Paul. I hope it proves to be as fast as your montana x mitis so we see the result soon, that if the pollination of the two was successful.
Melt in the Sun wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:09 pm
Those two crossed would make a real stunner of a plant. How much seed did you get overall?
Melt, if you're referring to my two agaves, I got hundreds of seed pods from the A. victoriae reginae inflorescence, each filled with maybe several hundred seeds. I'm making wild guesses here, on the conservative side.
My thought is that you will have hybrid seed on the vic-reg, pollinated by the parryi truncata but less likely the reverse. My reasoning is that the styles are much shorter on the vic-reg and the parryi truncata pollen will have been able to travel the full length, but much of the pollen from the much shorter flowers of vic-reg would not have been able to travel the full length of the much longer styles of the parryi truncata and still be viable.
Thanks for that pearl, Greg. Whether I get the original Queen Vic or the hybrid, I look forward to making a mass planting with them some day.
Here's an ancillary question related to my seedlings. I'm noticing a light dusting of what appears to be mold on the potting soil. Should I lightly spray copper soap fungicide, or leave it alone? See pics.
I climbed up a step ladder and put this pollen on the crassispina flowers of a cluster that I could reach. Whilst I was up there I carefully cleaned the paintbrush (wiped it on my trousers 
) and transferred crassispina pollen on other clusters in a bid to increase any possible seed set. I did this every day for about a week - interesting to see the change in appearance of the stigmata over time. 
